Tuesday, June 23, 2009

Tobacco Regulated, But Not Guns

Last week we talked about the gun manufacturers who are exempt from the kind of safety regulations which others are subject to. I seemed to have some difficulty explaining the difference between safety regulations and the many legal requirements gun owners must adhere to. The answers became clear in today's article in the Huffington Post by Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington, DC. In his article, "Gunmakers Now Last Unregulated Industry" he explains.

When presented with guns' unique niche in the pantheon of consumer products, the industry and its cheerleaders like the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) go into a well-practiced spiel of how in fact they're actually the most regulated industry in America -- citing dealer and manufacturer licensing, the minimal paperwork necessary to buy a gun under federal law, the Brady background check all buyers must go through to purchase a weapon from a licensed dealer, and the fact that ATF is allowed to check a dealer's sales records once a year (a privilege the agency has the manpower to employ on a far less frequent basis). Yet these are sales standards, not product safety standards. ATF lacks any of the health and safety authority that is routinely granted -- and usually expected by the American public -- for other consumer products. Imagine if there were no FAA and National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) to oversee air safety. Would the public tolerate it if 100 Boeing 777s crashed every year? Of course not. But that would result in the same loss of life as the 30,000 Americans who are killed year in and and year out by guns.

With President Obama's signing of a bill granting the federal Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regulatory authority over the tobacco industry, we are now left with only the gun makers as the last American industry not regulated for health and safety.

As Mr. Sugarmann said, guns are now the only consumer product manufactured in America not regulated by a federal agency for health and safety. Does that sound right to you?

Why are gun owners so against anything to do with gun control? Are they afraid it will inconvenience them in their daily lives or do they fear a slippery slope leading to government confiscation?

What's your opinion?



31 comments:

  1. MikeB,


    When there are an average of 2 accidental deaths per day from something with over 270 million items owned, do we really need MORE GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT?

    Can you show me, in the Constitution, where there is authorization for the government to regulate the firearm industry?

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  2. Hi ya Mike. Found you via FWM.

    You think guns aren't regulated? Does over 20k gun laws in the U.S. sound regulated?

    I disagree with it, but gun mfg. are protected against "frivolous law suits" due to asshats like Josh Sugarmann trying to sue them out of business.

    They can and are sued successfully for bad designs and defective products.

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  3. "Why are gun owners so against anything to do with gun control?"

    False.

    Why do you not question anything that Josh Sugarmann claims but believe the FBI doctored the UCR numbers. Doesn't he claim credit if more 'gun control' is passed?

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  4. "the tobacco industry"

    So when did one have to fill out a form and have a background check done for every cigar they bought?

    When did I have to have a federal license to grow a tobacco plant and roll my own cigs?

    Never? Really?

    So I guess they weren't 'regulated' the same like Josh claims.

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  5. You can repeat "guns are not regulated" until you're blue in the face. Repeating it won't make it true.

    http://blog.joehuffman.org/2009/06/07/QuoteOfTheDayDougPennington.aspx

    http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/06/23/its-time-to-give-up-the-lie/

    Buy a gun, read up on all the laws you need to know and understand to keep from becoming an instant felon and then tell me "Guns Aren't Regulated."

    The HELL they aren't Mike.

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  6. Here's a question for you, MikeB. Let's say that the regulatory authority you and Sugarmann claim doesn't exist was somehow brought about (the utter lack of Constitutional authority for it notwithstanding). Let's, furthermore, be ridiculously generous in our hypothetical scenario, and pretend that somehow these new rules prevented every unintentional shooting (all the negligent shootings, and all the exponentially even more rare shooting injuries that can be blamed on faulty design or manufacture of guns).

    Do you mean to tell me that you and all the crybaby gun haters will stop whining about "gun violence" if that tiny percentage of deaths and injuries caused by gunshot wounds has been averted?

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  7. "They can and are sued successfully for bad designs and defective products."

    Yup, Just like any other consumer product. If your product is causing injury due to a defect or design flaw you can still be sued.

    If a manufacturer was putting out a pistol with bad mettalurgy in the slide and they were blowing up and injuring shooters the manufacturers would not be immune from a lawsuit.

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  8. Even with government regulation, automobiles kill people at a rate of over 4x that of guns.

    Considering what government regulation has done to automobiles in the name of safety, I think i'll pass on letting them regulate guns.

    Stacking on a bunch of government mandated safety devices and warnings has never made any product safer. It's only made the user more careless.

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  9. Except it's not really true. Why does congress regulate firearms at all, if not for safety? If someone believes that machine guns are too dangerous for civilians to possess, wouldn't that be a safety regulation? If the federal government requires background checks for retail sales of firearms, isn't that because Congress has determined that selling firearms to people who are prohibited from having them is determent to public safety?

    Putting aside whether you believe these regulations actually have a positive impact on public safety, Sugarmann's assertion is ludicrous on its face. There are numerous regulations on firearms because Congress has deemed it in the interest of public safety.

    What Sugarmann proposes is that guns be regulated in the same manner as the FDA regulates drugs. Guns are, in fact, regulated in much the same way as other consumer products in the United States. Just because jurisdiction falls under ATF instead of CPSC, doesn't make them unregulated as consumer products.

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  10. Sebastian, Thanks so much for coming here to comment. I have a lot of respect for you ad your blog; you do me honor.

    With all due respect, though, doesn't Sugarmann's explanation work in describing the difference?

    "Yet these are sales standards, not product safety standards. ATF lacks any of the health and safety authority that is routinely granted -- and usually expected by the American public -- for other consumer products."

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  11. With all due respect, though, doesn't Sugarmann's explanation work in describing the difference?

    I know you and Sugarmann try to claim a distinction, but I see "product safety standards" on one hand, and laws regulating a product, supposedly for safety, on the other. That's a pretty bloody thin distinction.

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  12. Hey MikeB,ever read Sugarmann's reasoning for wanting 'safety standards' applied to firearms?

    Why to ban them of course.

    http://daysofourtrailers.blogspot.com/2009/06/same-ol-josh-sugarmann.html

    Is that your goal as well?

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  13. Mikeb302000,

    "What's your opinion?"

    I think all guns should be made illegal in all countries except in very exceptional circumstances, and very strictly regulated.

    Bob S,

    "When there are an average of 2 accidental deaths per day from something with over 270 million items owned, do we really need MORE GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT?"

    I think you do very much. Statistics show that that people in USA have 40 times more chances of being murdered than in England or in France, and 200 times more than in Japan. Most of the murders happen with guns.

    Where else than in America do you see regularly horrors of kids killing dozens of other kids at school with guns?

    Greetings from Paris,
    Valérie

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  14. "I think all guns should be made illegal in all countries except in very exceptional circumstances, and very strictly regulated."

    Yeah, because requiring that the GOVERNMENT have a monopoly on force hasn't resulted in those governments slaughtering hundreds of millions of their own disarmed citizens......

    I mean hell, if only there were documented history of citizens being disarmed and slaughtered by their own governments.

    Valerie - Your comment is a prime example of failing to learn the lessons of history.

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  15. Valerie,

    Where else than in America do you see regularly horrors of kids killing dozens of other kids at school with guns?

    It doesn't happen here in America regularly either. It makes the news because of the irregularity of it and the infrequency of it.

    Columbine was the only "kids" I know of involving mass murder. The others were adults. Does it make it right the murders happened? No.

    But requiring people to be defenseless in school isn't right either.

    12 people dead in school shooting in Germany.

    Reports that Kretschmer was a disgruntled former student echoes Germany's last horrific school shooting, in April 2002, when Robert Steinhauser attacked the school he had previously been expelled from, killing 16 people before turning the gun on himself.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/4974853/Germany-school-shootings-Profile-of-a-high-school-killer.html


    TUUSULA, Finland - A bullied teenage outcast fired dozens of times in a rampage at his high school, emptying nearly 20 rounds into some victims before trying to start a fire, Finnish police said Thursday.

    Investigators examined a suicide note and hate-filled Internet postings to determine why the killer, identified as 18-year-old Pekka-Eric Auvinen, went on the spree and killed people before he fatally shot himself.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21686096/


    Perhaps in Europe we see school shootings also.


    There are already laws against murder....want to make it more illegaller to murder someone?

    How will allowing the Consumer Product Safety commission to regulate firearms stop someone from committing a murder?

    Smart Guns? Computers are hacked easily. Most networks have been criminally breached; put a smart chip in a gun and before it's on the shelves, there will be a hack for it!.

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  16. How much do you want to bet Valerie will not actually cite any of the so-called "statistics" she just threw out?

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  17. "Valerie - Your comment is a prime example of failing to learn the lessons of history."

    It's not even a matter of history anymore. All one needs to do is look at what's happening in Iran today. That's the result of a government monopoly on force.

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  18. "Statistics show that that people in USA have 40 times more chances of being murdered than in England or in France, and 200 times more than in Japan."

    Methinks Valerie left out a qualifier or is playing w/ raw numbers in comparison to per capita.

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  19. Why would you call Mr. Sugarman's writing an article when it was clearly an editorial?

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  20. Valérie, Don't listen to those guys, honey. Especially that Mike W. When he sarcastically says, "Valerie will not actually cite any of the so-called "statistics,"" I suppose he's implying that your statement was wrong. But, I think even he knows the U.S. wins hands down in the arena of gun violence. To many Europeans, and even some Americans, it's a disgrace and a laughing-stock all at the same time. The exact ratios can change depending on what countries we compare to and what polls we use, but gun violence is as American as apple pie anymore, everyone knows it, even Mike W.

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  21. WW Paul, You're right that was more of an editorial than an article. So? Does that mean somthing?

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  22. "But, I think even he knows the U.S. wins hands down in the arena of gun violence."

    No it doesn't. To say so is a lie.

    And yet, when crime goes down even w/ more firearms and more progressive laws, MikeB questions those numbers as 'doctored'.

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  23. "Valérie, Don't listen to those guys, honey. "

    That's right. MikeB needs people to remain ignorant if they are to continue to support gun control.

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  24. Ha, rather than dismiss my points on their merits MikeB can do no more than say "Valerie, don't listen to Mike W."

    Keeping your head in the sand doesn't change the reality of the world around you.

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  25. Mikeb30200,

    "Valérie, Don't listen to those guys, honey. Especially that Mike W. When he sarcastically says, "Valerie will not actually cite any of the so-called "statistics,"" I suppose he's implying that your statement was wrong."

    Thank you for the kind words. Don't worry about me, I used to fascist pigs saying their side of the story. When it comes to statistics, any person who can type "Google" and "Wikipedia" can find then, so MikeW and others can consult them without me showing them how to do it.

    It is rather ironical that people like them talk about you having your head in the sand when they sound like they have never seen the light of day themselves.

    I have found your blog because of Microdot who has been a regular contributor to the blog I attend to every day for years ( http://ppblog.free.fr/ ). It's not MY blog, I don't have one, I simply attend to this one because it is fun and serious at the same time.

    I feel for you because you are like Microdot in a way, an American expat in Europe, and have similar views on the world, it seems to me.

    But you see, on PP, there are lots of Americans every day who are not expats, and they also have similar views on the world to you and Microdot, and it is a big hope for the American People, I think.

    Nunya is really vocal and so funny.

    Anyway, thank you again for the nice words, and good luck with the herd of hyenas that seem to surround you, I'm really sorry about that because you seem to be such a nice man.

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  26. MikeB,

    I suppose you are going to let Valerie get away with name calling because she didn't directly call us names, eh?


    Thank you for the kind words. Don't worry about me, I used to fascist pigs saying their side of the story.

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  27. See MikeB, when asked to support her assertions, Valerie is reduced to throwing around insults and telling us to do our own research.

    Why is that?

    Because she knows her numbers are complete nonsense and insults are her only resort.

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  28. when asked to support her assertions, Valerie is reduced to throwing around insults and telling us to do our own research.

    Yup, she's the typical rude, intolerant anti-gunner.

    I find it hilarious that she told us to use WIKIPEDIA for citing statistics.

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  29. Why use Wikipedia when you can use the CDC, DOJ, and other sources of statistics? While the government agencies may not be correct, at least they don't let just anyone go in an fudge the numbers, you need to be a G-13 or higher.

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  30. . . . fascist pigs . . .

    . . . the herd of hyenas . . .

    I'm just a dumb gun rights advocate, Valérie, so please forgive my confusion--how can we be both "pigs" and "hyenas"?

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  31. Reputo,

    MikeB doesn't accept numbers from the authorities because he believes they are doctored for political gain.

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